Ep. 16 – Effective Collaboration in Cancer Care with Janet Penny & Rebecca Sturgeon – Collaborative Connections Podcast

Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00]

Ericka Clinton: Good day. Everyone welcome another episode collaborative connections. A space

for sharing

and learning sponsored by the Society for Oncology Massage and the Society for Oncology Aesthetics. My name Clinton I will be host for this

episode on

Meet the Guests: Janet Penny and Rebecca Sturgeon

Ericka Clinton: today’s podcast, we two amazing folks, Janet Penny and Sturgeon. Penny is registered massage therapist in Ottawa, Canada. Her massage practice focus On people by cancer provides the challenges and inspiration create

deeply satisfying

Rebecca Sturgeon: work.

Ericka Clinton: Janet provides S4OM accredited oncology massage training throughout Canada. Rebecca Sturgeon is the curriculum specialist and lead instructor for HealWell, an organization provides education for massage therapists and participates in [00:01:00] advocacy and research.

In massage therapy, works tirelessly create meaningful and robust interprofessional education for massage therapists and other health care providers as a former teacher of writing the college level, Rebecca passionate

the written word.

And about all forms of human communication. We very blessed today to have Janet and Rebecca us as they co authored called oncology massage, an integrative approach cancer care. Thank you both for joining today. Welcome. Welcome.

Janet Penny: Thank you, Erika.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Thank you.

Ericka Clinton: We’re really to have guys on podcast to about your book.

know

how much I struggle just writing like. my treatment notes after a session and writing a book seems such a major undertaking, but I would love for our listeners to understand

from

Inspiration Behind the Book

Ericka Clinton: each of you, uh, what inspired you write book [00:02:00] about oncology

Rebecca Sturgeon: massage?

Janet Penny: Uh,

right. Well,

opportunity presented itself, and that’s an opportunity probably only comes about once in a lifetime. So it was Without question, too good to pass up, but it didn’t mean that it wasn’t and I wondered really what could be added to the topic. So spent a whole weekend with Gail McDonald’s book, Medicine And I didn’t read every word of every page, but I read parts of every page. And I was really trying to figure out if there was anything new to found out Gail had covered pretty much everything and there maybe wasn’t too much new to say, but maybe a new approach to look at some of the information and how we organize our thoughts around and And what I’m hoping is that the book is part of a very long continuum, starting with Gail and Tracy and others, and is a continuum so that our book sits there, but will be other works that are created going [00:03:00] forward as well. So that was the inspiration and it was an incredible experience to have a year and half to write

and

research and spend time with Rebecca and collaborate

Wow, year half. That

Ericka Clinton: is a long time, but sure to produce something like a like this, you put the time and effort in. But Rebecca, what were some of the inspirations for

Rebecca Sturgeon: you?

Well, I think, Dan, it might have buried the lead a

little

like this was her conception and she the proposal and had this beautiful proposal.

And, I was lucky enough meet her through Kathy Ryan and Calcates. And just really, just really seemed a person that I would love to create something with. and this being a topic that I felt with.

Comfortable

enough write a book, certainly

of my own lack of knowledge, which made it a bit scary.

But also [00:04:00] exciting because you get to research and figure things out and sometimes get it wrong and then so it was exciting. great experience.

Janet Penny: And I

was that collaboration where we had each other bounce off of all

the

Rebecca Sturgeon: times. Yes.

Janet Penny: That made difference. I would not want to take on a project like this alone. It would

be

so daunting.

Rebecca Sturgeon: agree. Absolutely. Yeah.

Ericka Clinton: Collaboration is

such a

genius thing, right? We do in our treatment rooms. When we talk about how we with our clients, because we’re always collaborating with them. And so to be able to do that in creative

project, like, book

was probably really amazing and helpful the process.

Challenges in Writing the Book

Ericka Clinton: so what was the challenging part?

each you. Oh, Rebecca laughs. So, course, you have to

Rebecca Sturgeon: I have go

1st.

This going sound [00:05:00] facetious, bring it in the most challenging part was writing the book. Right? And what I mean is the, Actual like sitting down

putting

the words on the paper, because it’s really easy, particularly if you’re passionate about a subject like this.

And particularly if it’s what

do every day, it’s really easy to just get in the research whirlpool. And hang out there

Fun and comfortable and you can read this and you

this and oh,

you can this other thing. And, like, I remember very distinctly while we were writing it, a

on

immunotherapy came out while we were writing it and I was like, I think that was 1 of the chapters that I was

on

And I

like,

well, I have to that book, but no, at some point, I have write a chapter. So just the actual, deciding that you had enough information.

the chapter and sitting down to write it, I found the very challenging

Ericka Clinton: Of, like, [00:06:00] distillation, like, there’s all of information and you need to convey

Rebecca Sturgeon: much to

Ericka Clinton: really people understand and connect what you’re trying to acknowledge, I guess. Yeah, I can imagine could be really hard. And

course. Being a, science

call myself, I loved it.

everything. I’m oh, read book. I to read I need to read And like, right, because there are just 800 in a day for you to

do

Rebecca Sturgeon: all those things

Ericka Clinton: read those books and read

those articles.

Oh,

so Jenna, what was, what would you

say challenging part for you in creating book?

Janet Penny: Yeah, I think was the big questions. How much do we need to know as massage therapists to work with this population? don’t think that’s an answerable question, but some point, Rebecca and I had to narrow down so we could focus and write the [00:07:00] chapter, as she said, because you go all over the place for so long.

One the other big picture challenges was the audience. Who’s the audience? You know, massage therapy education in different places, uh, some very short, some is very long. So some people will come to the book with a lot knowledge already, and some not so much. Some people will come to it with a lot experience in the field, and some not so much.

So how try and meet an audience somewhere in between so that no one’s left behind. That was a really challenge.

The other challenge

found how to organize my time. The opportunity came along. My had just finished high school. Both my parents had passed. I actually had a lot of time, which was, is a rare thing to have in life.

But how to organize it. So initially I think I worked two mornings a week and focused on that, but found that you take one phone call, throw in one load of laundry and time is whittled away.

So

wasn’t working. So I ended taking one week every month and I would go away [00:08:00] from my home. I’d get an

an Airbnb,

and I would work and I would do whatever was in the area, cross country ski or hike or bike or whatever.

So

So I

took a week every month. Which I have to say were some of the happiest weeks my entire just to be able to focus entirely on what you want to do was so much fun. So those are the challenges the big, picture of how and what create and what will be useful to our community.

And then on a more personal level, how to manage my time.

Ericka Clinton: Those

I think great challenges to have though.

Janet Penny: absolutely, yeah, they were, it was so fun energizing as well, which is what I remember the most about it.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Absolutely. Yeah. I will second that taking time. I had good fortune of, having a very supportive partner who would take weekends again and

deep

work weekends and would just, would work on the would work on his projects

Somehow it got done.

Ericka Clinton: That’s amazing. And [00:09:00] supportive family and community is clearly part how you

get.

To the end Result. so I had another question but I guess I’m

Rebecca Sturgeon: Of,

Ericka Clinton: intrigued by, something

Janet said.

Personal Reflections and Learnings

Ericka Clinton: So were things that you learned about

yourself?

Rebecca Sturgeon: this

Ericka Clinton: book.

Janet Penny: A few things. Yeah.

Rebecca Sturgeon: One or two.

Janet Penny: Yeah, I really, I guess the first thing comes to mind, so must be the most important is that I learned when I needed to reach out

for support and when not to try and muscle

through and do it on my own. And some of

of that support

most definitely was from Rebecca, but also from my partner my kids and my friends who are super excited about the

project.

Okay.

So back to the word collaborative, I really, learned and have benefited from when to ask for support or help or hug or whatever is and that stayed with me. It’s, that was a really [00:10:00] great learning thing because it was so intense at times that it was too to do on one’s own.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Yeah. I

similarly,

I

have, I write a lot in different aspects of my life

it’s always

a kind of solitary

pursuit,

with the exception of the

writing

group that. I think what I learned was how much,

available, like of, my own, developing my own skills as well as knowledge.

If,

I let someone, you know, In to collaborate in

very

real way and have conversations about ideas how things can shift and change when you work in community.

and

how important that is, work is so solitary, right? It’s massage and suddenly realizing, right? Better in community. Yeah,

Janet Penny: the really important

one certainly working Rebecca when you have partner in [00:11:00] project, knowing that they’re going to do what they to do and take that responsibility is incredible, you know, because you don’t have to carry that as well. They’re doing their part. You do your part.

Ericka Clinton: amazing. So guys didn’t get like into your caretaker solitary. I’m going do all mode.

Reflecting on the Writing Process

Ericka Clinton: You actually had to share the

work,

It’s

Janet Penny: Yeah.

learning. Good learning.

Rebecca Sturgeon: It was. Yeah.

Ericka Clinton: So, What the most interesting part for you to work book? Was it a chapter, was something that you really found you by working on the book? Because obviously everybody took

different pieces of the book their as their work.

Rebecca,

why you start?

Rebecca Sturgeon: Yeah. wha

Challenges and Breakthroughs

t ended up being the most interesting also me the most challenging to get into. I wrote the chapter on intake, was the last chapter that I wrote, every [00:12:00] time I would try to write it, would just be, would just get, this sort of frozen, like, uh,

Rebecca Sturgeon: uh,

and then, you know, go work on something else.

and it was

1 those experiences where it’s I gave it to my subconscious mind or whatever, uh, part of your,

being

processes things that when

doing

something else, I the experience 1 day where I was just, uh, journaling and I started journaling about, like, The 1st time I talked

clients

and what

like,

what is, and it

just

like penny drops. Oh, this is how I, how I go in to

chapter.

I had, like, the 1st 2 paragraphs of that chapter, like,

came

whole cloth from that journal.

were very few changes. rest it was definitely own

challenge, but

that was,

I

love writing experiences like that, where you have something that feels like it’s going to be.

Impossible, or it’s going to I was convinced that chapter would [00:13:00] be the worst chapter in the book. And it is in some people’s opinion. I don’t to hear it, but I

I

was convinced then as soon as that came.

two

paragraphs came, I felt I had a road map.

Beautiful.

Ericka Clinton: Janet?

Janet Penny: yes.

Organizing Information and Insights

Janet Penny: so the most interesting part, well, I found the whole process interesting

and it just felt

a big work of art at times, even though evidence informed and it’s practical, but really felt like creating something big and I found super exciting.

in terms of the actual writing

researching, can you hear the trucks in the back?

Ericka Clinton: Oh,

Janet Penny: I didn’t know. Okay. Sorry. cut that. Actually, just letting that Bye. I organizing information into charts. I got a pretty big charge out of that. Because it gives us something to refer to quickly when we’re working with someone we have client come in, can really just look through that quickly and get some information.

And it really helped me to see to the repetition in information that we [00:14:00] to process as massage therapists. So there are differences whether someone’s dealing with the side of chemotherapy or radiation or just surgery. But are also a lot parallels between them, and those parallels allow us to really get a strong foundation, because we can use that information to create a safe treatment plan, and we don’t have to know absolutely everything, we can whittle down to few really key points, so

that

helped me to really solidify that in my own practice. I also really thought it interesting, and Rebecca did this chapter about therapeutic relationship, and I do give that thought, but not much as I did after reading Rebecca’s chapter, and I realized that is, So critical to the work we do for ourselves and for patients, and I don’t think that we talk about it enough and don’t think we get enough education So that’s a big one. And then the final one was the oncology massage around the world’s chapter, which was just straight [00:15:00] fun because I got to talk to people from a multitude of different countries. And some have very established oncology massage programs in their country and some are just beginning and I really wanted to present that to potential readers because some people will come in and they’re part of those countries that are well developed and others just want to start up.

So, I wanted to show a range of where it was around the world and to give people resources to if they want tap into those as they develop their own programs and there just some really incredibly hardworking and vibrant people I got to talk

That’s pretty much it.

Ericka Clinton: That’s wonderful. Yeah.

So

Learning from Each Other

Ericka Clinton: on topic collaboration,

would you say you learned from other?

Rebecca Sturgeon: I feel like I learned so much from Janet. do you, how much time

you Have?

I learned a lot about organizing information. From Janet And,

making it

immediately useful

and clear. [00:16:00] Also learned a lot, uh, got a deeper, understanding of the science behind a lot of things. I learned about,

uh,

persistence from Janet and also the, how to, think I learned a lot about to be a joyful and, good

collaborator.

From the way that Janet interacted with me, about orange cats. an orange cat, right?

And

Yes. Sweet baby. But was so much. Yeah.

Janet Penny: our cats used to come on our calls.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Yeah.

Janet Penny: Unfortunately, mine died in the middle of process. That was a

loss.

Rebecca, you’re making me blush. Yeah, I never left a meeting with Rebecca that I didn’t feel calmer. didn’t feel that I had the big picture. In my mind and in my hands and my thinking and in my processing in between our meetings, and that is super helpful because get overwhelmed by detail [00:17:00] and she always kept us steady that what we were doing creating something,

Bigger than us, and that was going be good, because sometimes.

I got a

a little concerned

that the

Rebecca Sturgeon: imposter syndrome

Janet Penny: syndrome up. Uh, and she, didn’t let that take hold. You know, she didn’t deny it, but she didn’t let it take hold. And that was so very helpful.

Rebecca Sturgeon: you.

Ericka Clinton: amazing.

amazing.

All so my

Hopes for the Book’s Impact

Ericka Clinton: last and final question,

be a big one. But

what do you both hope to accomplish with the publication of

Rebecca Sturgeon: Fame and world domination.

Ericka Clinton: There you go.

Rebecca Sturgeon: early retirement

Janet Penny: youth

Yeah.

Rebecca Sturgeon: I don’t

Ericka Clinton: in infamy now.

Rebecca Sturgeon: early retirement Bali, I don’t know, I

Janet Penny: don’t know you, Rebecca, but I never really had that big a philosophy behind it all. [00:18:00] So when you asked that question, Erica, it did make me

And it comes

some of the basics, is that at least here in Canada, in most schools, but not all, we’re not getting any foundation in working with people with cancer.

think it’s terrible oversight, because without some knowledge, I

think

we can do quite a bit harm, so I’m hoping that eventually this will trickle down so that all foundational massage training will have at least some information on working with people affected by cancer its treatments. So, growing oncology massage awareness.

And I think the more educated we are as a community, the more we can work together for these people, but also the more we can be included in the integrative oncology community, which we have. a deserving place in that community. We have so, so very much to offer. And really just, as I mentioned earlier, a growing base of oncology massage materials for people to refer [00:19:00] to.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Yeah, it was interesting how it, how, the process changed my perspective and, led to what I want

this book.

similarly to Janet, I started, it was just, it was so big. I couldn’t see the end of it. It just like, I just want to get to

end.

And what was driving me was,

selfishly,

how to write, I’ve wanted my name a book.

that published by a

publisher and like, okay, so I’m going to

name on book

published

by a publisher. And that’s exciting. what it became and what I hope now especially because I had the good fortune to interview Walton and Gail McDonald for the book.

And I hope that this book becomes the thing that inspires someone, whoever comes next, whoever writes the next thing,

creates

the next thing that helps the whole community.

I hope that’s what this is that this the book that inspires someone

now, or has it on their shelf right now to go [00:20:00] and do the next thing and be the next person that you talk to on this

podcast.

Because we all lift each other up. that’s what I hope

Final Thoughts and Gratitude

Janet Penny: Can I go back to what I learned, uh, from Rebecca?

Rebecca Sturgeon: Sure.

Janet Penny: Humble, never arrogant, never here. Like, and that’s, that was.

a nice person to spend time with as we created this, there was no arrogance. So I have throw that in.

Ericka Clinton: Yes.

Yes say

that

really good people work really well

together.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Yes.

Ericka Clinton: Uh, thank both so, so very much. We really

you taking the time

1. This was amazing. And I do really hope that your book

inspires

Rebecca Sturgeon: others.

Ericka Clinton: some of community to do the next

thing.

Janet Penny: Thank you so much. It’s a real pleasure.

Rebecca Sturgeon: [00:21:00] Thank you for having us on here.

This was great.

Ericka Clinton: yes, absolutely. And you continue to write more books, we’ll just keep doing

podcasts just there just case, inspired from the

two of you. But

Rebecca Sturgeon: it Erica.

Ericka Clinton: been a pleasure. It’s been a pleasure. So

thank you.

Rebecca Sturgeon: Thank

you.

Ericka Clinton: All right, collaborators have a great day and I hope you enjoyed today’s podcast.